Oppo help me out again - College Major and Future Jobs?

"K-Roll-PorscheTamer" (k-roll390) 10/05/2014 at 16:02 • Filed to: Car Life

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I'm sitting here at my job at work, watching Top Gear's Top 41, and I've come to the point again, where I'm questioning my major, whether or not it's the right one, and if it is, what future I've got. All I know is that my passion is for cars and that's it.

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Nothing else interests or fascinates me more than cars: how they function, the mechanics, how they drive and feel, the performance, and especially the design and manufacturing. Nothing beats that for me, I just love cars and being around the. What kinda jobs actually fit these needs?

And then it was told to me by someone else that perhaps I should take a different path in college; not one that focuses on my passion for cars, but something that is enjoyable to get a career in, and from there, have the resources and funds to enjoy my love of cars further. But the problem is that I don't know anything else other than cars. I can't see any other place, job or major where I'd enjoy myself. Can anyone help me out with this?

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:03

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Do what you love!

TheBaron2112 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:07

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What's your current major?

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:09

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We can only do so much. Some people will swear that you need to follow your passion to have a good career. I am the opposite - I fear that chasing after your interests for a career will lead to the death of your passion. But both answers are correct. Fair warning - expect to not like having to get up for work in the morning. You can certainly not hate your job, but do realize it is an obligation in your life. You do it because you have to. Whether that will strengthen your passion or extinguish it? Only you can decide on that.

FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:10

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I was in a very similar situation to you a couple years ago and pushed to work in the auto industry and can't be more happy that I did. Let me know if you would like to talk more, perhaps off oppo.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/05/2014 at 16:11

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But I don't know if the road to get there is actually worth it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 16:11

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Mechanical Engineering

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > FJ80WaitinForaLSV8 10/05/2014 at 16:13

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We can talk more off Oppo if you'd like.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles 10/05/2014 at 16:14

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I'm worried of both, I don't know where to go. There's no sign or thought that I should do this or that, I'm just stuck.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:14

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it is. Be patient

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:14

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industrial or mechanical engineering and you don't necessarily have to work with an auto manufacturer there are thousands of suppliers for the manufacturers and after market companies...not to mention you could pursue jobs with companies that manufacture engines or other types of vehicles (like construction equipment) where you'll learn a lot that will still translate to cars

Tim (Fractal Footwork) > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:16

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Mechanical Engineering. Stick with that. You'll get enough monkey to buy awesome cars and you'll more easily find a job in the industry.

dogisbadob > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:17

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If you can't do math, you're fucked. Engineering or not, all the good jobs require some math skills, some more than others. There are good majors that require less math than engineering, but there still is some math. Finance, economics, chem, physics, computer science, etc.

Read the material before the class lecture on it. Do the homework problems even if the instructor doesn't collect/grade hw.

Are you grasping the qualitative concepts? I thought someone that knew a lot about cars would be very good at ME!

I wish I had better advice for you, but good luck.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/05/2014 at 16:17

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And even at that, I don't even know where I'm going with this, if you read my linked post, you'll understand why. -_-

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Tim (Fractal Footwork) 10/05/2014 at 16:18

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If you read my linked post, you'll understand why I'm so unsure of my major.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 10/05/2014 at 16:19

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I'm already in mechanical engineering and I suck at math. Hence, the reason I'm stuck.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > dogisbadob 10/05/2014 at 16:21

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That's what I thought, but I don't know. Maybe I am fucked for life.

TheBaron2112 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:21

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Math is really only a thing when it comes to the initial semesters. After that, you won't do anything more than adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. Calculus ends after you pass your required classes.

It's the physics (statics and dynamics) that mechanical engineers need to understand.

Or you could just go to a vocational school and study car repair. That isn't a bad option if you love cars. You'll be able to get a job at a mechanic's shop, hopefully. It wouldn't be a moneymaker, but it would be what you love.

College isn't a requirement in life.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:21

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I haven't read it yet. But I can tell you this - being your age sucks. Things get better. Trust me!

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/05/2014 at 16:24

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That's what everyone's been telling me since middle shcool...

High school, things will get better than middle school

College, things will get better than high school

It's all still the same shit in a different format every damn day. I just want to actually work and get the money to do the things I want to do.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:25

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:/

I know it sucks to wait

But eventually you'll have your career

And then you'll be happier

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 16:26

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I can do physics better than the math I'm doing now, I understand physics and yet I can't do precalc for shit. I should've just taken Calc 1 and skipped precalc, I didn't need it in the first place.

For me college is a requirement or I look like a damn failure. I don't want to be that person who never passed college, no matter how successful I could be, if ever.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:27

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maybe industrial engineering, not as math intensive as mechanical and you'll focus on the production/manufacturing side of things...depending on what you do as an engineer you may not use really complicated math ever again after college. Honestly you don't even really need to be an engineer after you graduate but the degree will help. Most companies that sell a mechanical item need sales reps that understand how the product works well and prefer engineers for those position.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/05/2014 at 16:28

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If I can't get past precalc, what future have I got?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s 10/05/2014 at 16:31

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I know I don't have to be an egineer post graduation(if I get that far), but what about the now? The present, the complicated math I have to deal with now? If I can't get past that, I've got no future to speak of.

Jayhawk Jake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:35

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If you don't think you can cut it in engineering (don't feel bad, it's super tough to get through), get a degree that'll let you work with cars in another way. My mind goes to marketing and finance so you can get into sales. From there you can look for a job marketing for a major manufacturer or selling for a car part supplier, for example.

I speak from a somewhat parallel situation. I'm an engineer, I've been working as one for 3 years. I enjoy it, but it gets a bit boring and frustrating sometimes. I just really like airplanes! So I'm hoping to make a transition into sales down the road. To me that's where someone with a true passion can shine because selling a product is basically just making people as passionate for it as you are.

I also have to suggest that college isn't for everyone. I'm not saying it's not for you, but especially since I've gone through it I don't think everyone needs to go to college. I suggest you stick with it but entertain other options. Go get a job working with cars, at a shop or a dealer or something. Get some experience. See what you can do and then decide what to do with your college path.

TheBaron2112 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:36

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Your standards in this case are too high. If you don't want to go to college or don't want to be a mechanical engineer, don't do that. Go be a mechanic and be with cars. No one is saying you have to. And you yourself have said that you want to be around cars.

I'm not saying you can't get through college, but I am saying you don't have to make that a goal if your ULTIMATE desire doesn't require that path.

ly2v8-Brian > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:36

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You are just at that point when you question everything. I know I've been there. I've changed my life direction based on these thoughts. I was getting no where, so I went back to school. I am a first year Mechanical engineering student now. I plunged in head first into it with out EVER taking Physics and Calculus, it's been a slow start, but I've worked hard and every quiz and test is improving. Why? WORK and working with other students has been a major help. I was pessimistic as to whether or not this will work out. I no longer feel that way.

What I'm telling you is that you need to accurately gauge whether a change will provide a desired result. If you feel almost trapped and that nothing you do is improving anything, consider a change. BUT you are NEVER in this alone. There are plenty of folks that can and WILL help you.

JR1 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:39

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Have you tried every available route to pass precalc?

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jayhawk Jake 10/05/2014 at 16:43

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I don't know any other degrees that have much of anything I'd like to do with cars. My dad was in industrial sales for the last 30-40 years and watching him and his jobs, it's not for me at all. Waiting around for phone calls and getting payed on commission, what's the good in that? I'd at least like to have a steady income, if anything in my financial life.

Unless you're suggesting taking part in what seems to be the most hated job in the automotive world: a car dealer salesperson...

I need to stay in college, dropping out will bring much shame to my family and it would be awful.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 16:44

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I don't know what I want to do! I need to stay in college though. I whatever my goal is, it has to require my passing college and being around cars. All of this makes me question what my "ultimate desire" really is; if I've got one.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > ly2v8-Brian 10/05/2014 at 16:46

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I'm no good at asking and receiving help. I just can't do it, I've never been good at it.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > JR1 10/05/2014 at 16:47

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Such as...?

JR1 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:50

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Seeing the teacher, tutors, online help, friends in the class, etc. Depending why college you are at there is sure to be options to help you understand the work

yamahog > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:52

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Honestly, you probably will not use calculus-level math outside of college in many engineering careers, and if you do, you'll have computers doing the grunt work and you just need to have the sense to know when something doesn't look right. Work hard enough to get Cs in your hardest stuff, get good internships and no one cares about grades after graduation.

Now as for the career itself? You ever hear the saying about politics and sausage, if you like em don't watch how they're made? Similar to being in automotive engineering. Not every job is sexy. You could be working on shit like door hinges. Not necessarily a lot of "passion" involved, so don't stress about missing out on that if you don't go into engineering.

And that said, whoever told you that being an engineer would make you rich needs a bucket of water to the face. You'll do really well for a single 20-something if you don't have massive debt, but if you want to have kids and a car hobby (especially a German car hobby), better hope your spouse is making the same as you if not more because those things (kids and cars) are expensive.

But if you want enough money to fund Porsches and raise brats, go into programming, business (specifically finance), or both, like my ex who started making six figures straight out of college writing algorithms for a proprietary trading firm in Chicago. Also, both of those probably have less math requirements than MechE.

Good luck!

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 16:57

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i don't know how far you are in your program but if you're not very far into it and really really struggling with it maybe think about another direction (doing something you don't hate to afford something you love isn't all that bad)... If you're pretty far along I'd say stick it out,work your ass off, go to any tutoring sessions available, and maybe talk to your professor of you haven't yet

ly2v8-Brian > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:00

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I know man, I KNOW. It is all in your head. At first it was weird for me to ask for help from classmates, because I am about 5-6 years older than them (weird to even consider, right?). But many are very willing to help. Don't forget your Instructors they are ALWAYS willing to help. Also why not post something you are stuck on, here in oppo. There are plenty of smart people here. and I wouldn't be shocked if they help you out.

YOU HAVE TO FIGHT! Change won't happen overnight, and it may actually not pan out. BUT if you give it your all, and still change your path, you can take solace in the fact you GAVE IT YOUR ALL. Leave nothing on the table.

I don't know you, you don't know me, but I still care because you chose to outreach to us.

MasterMario - Keeper of the V8s > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:07

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I'll also add that once you get a degree no one knows whether you got Cs or As...if you want to stay in this join a club like formula SAE and dive into it...you'll learn more than you ever would in class and gain contacts and friends that will help you find a job after you graduate no matter you're gpa (some of the smartest guys i knew in college were in Formula SAE getting Cs and now have way better jobs than i do)

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:07

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you can do it! Keep trying

I had to take some classes twice. It happens. I took summer school to make up for some classes I dropped during the regular year

TheBaron2112 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:16

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Why does it have to require passing college?

Leadbull > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:39

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What subjects have you always enjoyed the most in school?

GeorgeyBoy > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 17:39

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If I recall you're from Michigan as well? What school if you don't mind me asking?

Jayhawk Jake > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 18:07

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You're young, so I understand the optimism, but the reality is you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Want to work with cars but can't cut it as an engineer? Go learn how to be a mechanic. Otherwise you need to find another way into the industry. There's plenty of support jobs in the industry that still lets you be a part of cars. Sales, marketing, finance, supply chain, accounting, etc.

On the car salesperson front why do you think it's so hated? People dislike sleazy salespeople but you don't have to be sleazy. I've heard from a few car salesmen that love their jobs. You like porsche, cut your teeth and become a Porsche salesman. Work your way into management, you can be successful. Hell, I met a salesman at carmax who owned a CTS-V coupe.

The way I see it you have two legitimate options: work your ass off, figure out how to do well in math (tutoring is a good start), make it as an engineer. Other option is to pick another profession, get your degree, and position yourself to use that position in the automotive industry in one way or another. It doesn't have to explicitly be related to cars, just something that a car related company would need.

Here's a little tough love, and I only say it because I know it's true: sitting around and moping about where you're at won't get you anywhere. Get active. Fix your problems. Be prepared to accept compromises. Life's tough, you gotta work hard to achieve your dreams. No one will hand them to you on a silver platter

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 18:12

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Have you had an internship into what you want to do? Just because you love cars, doesn't mean you'll end up love working with them. The last thing nowadays, car involved, that I would want to get involved in is the engineering of them. I have respect for those who do it, but with all the factors in the process, it sounds like my personal hell. That's just me. If you like the mechanical process of working on a car, there is no shame in being a mechanic. If you are into designing things, fabrication is also something to look into.

Eli's Got 2 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 18:19

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Can you join a study group or meet with a tutor?

Honestly Karl, maybe you just need to refocus. I don't think your major is the problem here.

Take a breath. Go for a walk. Clear your head. Do whatever it takes to get your mind right. You haven't failed at anything. You're just starting and you have a long way to go. Take care of yourself. :)

jkm7680 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 18:35

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Listen to Yamahog, What she speaks is the truth!

twochevrons > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 18:52

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My two cents: if engineering and cars are what you love, then do it as a hobby, and do something else for a career. If you love what you do, there's a lot of potential to enjoy yourself, but at the same time, compartmentalising your work and hobbies can be difficult, and frustration about work problems can really wreck your enjoyment of what you want to do for fun.

Five or six years ago, I was in the same boat as you. I'd gone into an engineering degree straight out of high school, absolutely convinced that it was the only career for me. A couple of years in, things weren't so great – my grades were bad, I didn't know how I could continue, but I still couldn't imagine doing anything else. At the time, I had a bunch of really rough personal shit go down (the details are beside the point), and ended up dropping out. After bumbling around aimlessly for a while (working full-time in retail is just about the worst idea ever), I ended up getting a job as a materials buyer for an engineering firm, thinking that I'd at least be doing something that I enjoyed. Not so – I spent the whole day wrangling with suppliers, poring over engineering drawings, and putting up with a particularly toxic ultra-masculine workplace culture, and the last thing that I wanted to do when I went home was work on my car. It was one of the reasons that I sold my Rover SD1 to get something more modern and reliable – I just couldn't face having to work on it every weekend when I was thinking in the same kinds of terms all week.

After a year of that, they laid me off, and I decided to go back to school. A few other events happened in between (namely, getting married and moving to the US), but I'm studying computer science now, and honestly, aside from the significant pressure of working a 'real' job (I'm a sysadmin for a university department) and going to school at the same time, I'm doing much better. In many ways, computer science ended up being a good fit for me – I like working with computers, and I'm good at it, but I have nowhere near as much interest in them as I do in cars, and that works out well. I can do stuff that I enjoy during the day, and then come home, and start bashing things with hammers (see my recent post regarding Haynes manuals ). I honestly don't touch computers much outside of work, and that's kind of nice. I'm strongly of the opinion that the only way to keep a decent work-life balance is to keep the two completely separate, and if you're doing the same kinds of things at work and in your free time, that's hard to achieve.

I'd definitely suggest computer science as something to consider: especially in the software design field, you end up applying many of the same ideas as you do to engineering. It's still related to technology, and there are some really cool engineering applications to computing. Sure, math is still involved, but at least at my college, the mandatory math classes aren't too hard – I'm specialising in theoretical computer science, which has a lot of high-level math involved, but that's only because I'm a glutton for punishment.

Having gone back to school after a couple of years in the workforce has done wonders for my work ethic, too. I've gone from being a C student to getting (almost) straight As, and I think that a lot of that is down to just having a bit more maturity and knowing how to get things done in the real world. If you're not entirely sure what you want to do, and circumstances allow, it might be worth considering taking a year or two out. There's downsides to that approach, too, but at least for me, I don't regret for a moment having done so.

TL;DR: I know that feel. There are other enjoyable things out there, and there's absolutely no shame in taking a break from school to figure things out.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 19:06

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I don't know, it's something I have to do. I don't want to have it in my mind that I'm successful even if I dropped out and everyone else passed.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Leadbull 10/05/2014 at 19:07

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That's the thing, I enjoyed math in high school, and science and I loved history.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > GeorgeyBoy 10/05/2014 at 19:07

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LTU

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jayhawk Jake 10/05/2014 at 19:23

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It's not even that thinking about it again; I just want to work around them. It doesn't have to be working in or on them, just something major that involves cars would make me happy I suspect.

I don't hate the thought of being a salesperson, but thinking about "payed by commission" really does bother me a lot. My dad had that when he was in industrial sales and sure he got payed well, but I hated the concept of it and continue to do so.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies 10/05/2014 at 19:25

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I haven't had an internship before. Mechanics get payed next to nothing though. What's the good fun of being one if you get payed so little?? Doesn't having fun have to be worth something of value?

JR1 > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 19:32

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Sorry buddy I thought I responded earlier.

Talk the the professor, tutors do wonders, classmates can be your best friends, math organizations, the internet, etc. At least at BGSU the college is set up to make sure you have every available opportunity to pass and pass with a good grade.

That's Engineering? > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 19:49

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I do disagree with your statement about math not being required. A lot of upper level mechanical classes employ differential equations (mass/spring/damper systems and RLC circuits come to mind immediately). DiffEq is required if you really want to understand the material and not just plug numbers into equations.

That's Engineering? > TheBaron2112 10/05/2014 at 19:51

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Also, if you want to do design work, you are definitely going to need to know the math behind it. Engineering is tough, unfortunately.

GeorgeyBoy > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 19:56

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I'll just give my 2 cents being someone in a similar position. I absolutely love cars. I love building things, I'm basically an engineer at heart. I'm very good at math. It took me a few years to decide though that engineering wasn't for me. If you're having second thoughts, I don't think it's right for you.

Just know that there are far more positions in the auto industry than just engineering. My opinion, check out the management aspects. Ferris has a good automotive management program if I recall correctly. Northwood also has good business programs that work very closely with the auto industry.

For me though, cars will always be a hobby. At least I will have a career that will be able to fund it, and I think that's all that matters.

Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 20:01

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Depending on what you work on. And you'll never work a day in your life, if you do what you love. Yeah, money is important, but depending on who you work for, you can make alright. Fabricators and welders on the other hand make a decent amount of money, and you'll have the skills to make your own things.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/05/2014 at 20:13

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at least no matter what happens you'll have your good taste. You could be this guy:

(took pic but it's on other phone, hold one one sec)

TheBaron2112 > That's Engineering? 10/05/2014 at 20:21

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I'm a civil engineer. I guess I'm used to empirical equations. I know the theory, but screw deriving the depth of flow in a pipe.

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/05/2014 at 20:39

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I see no picture.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/06/2014 at 01:01

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Sorry I was going to attach it right away and then I got side tracked and went and did stuff and just now back on Oppo. I tried to do it and accidentally deleted the pic from my phone.

But I found a car on the Internet that has a very similar wrap:

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/06/2014 at 01:10

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Kill it.

Manuél Ferrari > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/06/2014 at 01:13

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With fire. If you were there you would have waited for the owner to come to it and chew him out

K-Roll-PorscheTamer > Manuél Ferrari 10/06/2014 at 01:16

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Porsche drive-by torching.

Leadbull > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/06/2014 at 01:59

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You could study history, and focus on automobile/transportation history when you're an upperclassman/graduate with freedom to do such things.

It probably won't be as lucrative as ME, though. Or as straightforward...

orcim > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/06/2014 at 04:59

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I don't know any other degrees that have much of anything I'd like to do with cars.

Comp Sci, programming engine and tranny performance curves. I know the Oppo's hate it, but that's the future. (Think of custom mods, security work, etc.)

Art, Industrial Design, even color selection on shop rebuilds. If you have the aesthetic, that could work. Imagine the good work you'd do for that purple red pinstriped car above if you talked them out of it?

ChemE (tougher than mechanical, though, but different in focus.) Future fuels. If anyone thinks the fuels thing is going to stay static, I'm sure I can find a bridge.

Simplified wiring harnesses, advanced diagnostic sensor suites, custom modifications (where you don't produce the parts, but you learn them, understand them, and get your hands dirty with them so you can advise other people how they would fit together and what performance they were going to get).

New line manufacturing techniques. What's the best way to produce a car. What's the best design criteria to have when doing so for a particular market.

Cars are so *integral* to life - just a small shift in the way they are used, done could affect everyone. That's almost an urban planning/traffic design/poltical function.

No - you can have your passion and not have to do mechanical eng. I left EE back when because I sucked at fields and blew a gasket in differential equations (mostly because I was distracted.. but it was still like a fail.) Got a degree in something else and rode it hard for success. Didn't change my interests - just let me explore them more.

orcim > K-Roll-PorscheTamer 10/06/2014 at 05:12

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Quick note. May not be welcome but it's just my observation and I don't mean anything by it. Hoping for the best for you.

Noted in your previous post and some in this one a predilection to self-judgement (we all have it), self doubt, a lack of creative juices for yourself (asking for help is good, but then I note that sometimes you push back on what you get back instead of just letting it in and accepting it.) You understand the data of success (2 weeks time, should study for final, wait until the night before, get distracted or distract yourself, know you should be doing something different, your fault, etc.) You also used the word addiction, which has some powerful self connotations when applying it to behavior (whatever that behavior is.) I've got some I need to work on, too.

All of which is valid and in my opinion, shows me that you're tracking yourself even if at the current time you can't really enjoy any of it. The suggestion I have is maybe "work on yourself" and not on something outside yourself. You have the abilities I'd bet to win at whatever you want to do, but there's something getting in your way and it's *not* outside yourself. The engineering classes needed are inside ones, so it would seem from a random smattering of data from you on the internet late at night here.

Ask around - maybe people you don't talk to so much normally. Collect data, see what might work. For instance, I got my ass handed to me in the Mankind Project, but was very glad I did it, it's just the normal spiritual theater thing. It ended up getting some of my own self-judgment out of the way so I could get on with it. It's not for everyone, so ask around, look for ways to work on the *inside* problems that you've already seen.